The Joy of Curation

This podcast interview is available on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. Listen to the conversation between Ariana Torres, Guusje Sanders, and Emily G. Hanna, and follow along with this transcript. Run time is approximately 28 minutes

Ariana Torres: Welcome to Art of the People, a podcast from Mingei International Museum, offering a glimpse behind the scenes of the museum world with the artists and staff who make the magic happen. I'm Ariana Torres, Assistant Curator at Mingei, and today my colleague, Curator Guusje Sanders, and I are excited to be in conversation with our Chief Curator and Director of Exhibitions, Emily Hanna. We'll be learning more about Emily, her curatorial vision, and how she's brought her ideas to life with the team at Mingei.
Thank you for joining us.

Emily G. Hanna: Thank you. I'm so happy to be here talking to you both.


AT: Emily, first, can you share a little bit about your journey to Mingei with us?

EH: How far back to go? Back to birth? No.

AT: As far as you want to go.

Guusje Sanders: I mean birth is interesting too.

EH: I would say my interest in craft began when I became interested in studying African art, which was in college. There were no classes at that time. This was back in the Dark Ages, so I had to piece together a course of study for myself and ultimately ended up in a PhD program at the University of Iowa, which did have African studies, and I was able to go do pretty lengthy field work in West Africa.

In any event, I taught for 12 years. I taught at university and curated at the same time. I always have tried to do both things. I love teaching, and I love museum work. I taught at Spellman College. I worked at the High Museum of Art, and I always pulled students into my curatorial projects, because that was a really wonderful way, I thought, to bring fresh thought and fresh voices in.

I then began curating at the Birmingham Museum of Art, where I was for 19 years. That was a very fascinating place to live and work. Now I've been at Mingei for three years, and it's just like coming home. It's just the most perfect fit for me.

GS: So what drew you to African craft specifically?

EH: You know, it was the fact that it serves people so profoundly. It's not art that is separate to be looked at or contemplated from afar. It's things that were made to help people with their lives, move through transitions, the transitions that all people go through—loss, marriage, childbirth, conflict resolution, work. It really appealed to me that African art helps people, and it acknowledges the reality that we all experience.

And I love symbols.
I love symbolic meaning. I love coded meaning. African art is just so loaded with symbols, and it has layers of meaning, and it was intriguing to me the way people pass on culture there, the way they transmit knowledge, and the way the visual is so key to that. It takes primacy over the written word. Visual literacy is more important.

AT: Can you talk a little bit about if you find a difference between teaching and curation? What is the difference, in your experience, between the two?

EH: Oh my goodness. They just completely overlap. When you're in an art history classroom, you're putting something visual before people and asking them to stop whatever thing they're obsessively thinking about in the background and look and see and then come to understand how someone has attempted to communicate with a visual object. It's such a fun exercise, and it makes people feel so empowered when they've done it if they're not used to that, if they haven't grown up with that. Then you give people the tools to look and decode. It's such a feeling of victory in the classroom. Doing it from the museum side, what we do together is create these stories with objects, and we invite people into our space, and hopefully, if we've done it well, they encounter these wonderful objects from around the world, and then they leave with a different sense of people other than themselves and of creativity in general.

GS: I love what you're saying about craft, because there is something that is so innately human about it, and to be able to connect to it in the ways that you're talking about, I think it really creates a lot of meaning.

EH: It's so personal. I like going straight into the personal. These are the objects that people use—they live with every day. My own family, our family left Egypt. My father left Egypt when he was 28. There were political forces at work, and my grandmother sent certain things with him—very few things—but one was a tray, the tray that she served coffee and tea on every day. She had to choose what to send with my dad that would be closest to his heart, and so she sent that tray, and I have that tray now.

That's what craft is. When you think about all these cultures all over the world where there has been political turmoil, where people have had to leave for many reasons, or via the forces of colonization, where cultures just were absolutely squashed by invading forces, often the visual arts were the things that got squashed, because they were tied to tradition and ritual. Then religious entities came in, big forces came in that forced people away from what they were making, but craft survived, because it was useful.

Sometimes you see a pattern where, then, craft became imbued with a lot more meaning, hidden meaning, because it survived, so it's very dear to people. Even you see these phases in cultures that were colonized, whereby then people have to make craft to sell to an outside market. People had to pivot away from making things just for themselves to making things for sale. Often that's thought of as being made for a tourist market, but those craft situations are incubators for new creativity, and then you see something new coming out of that. It's just a fascinating evolution to watch, and we can embrace that history here and tell the whole story here.

AT: Can you talk a little bit more about craft in the markets as it relates to your ideas and ideas of authenticity and what people might think of as authentic craft versus craft that might be sold in markets?

EH: Well, that's such a good question, because I think people tend to shy away or reject something that they might see as being cranked out for a foreign market, but that's people making a living. That's people surviving in circumstances that they didn't create themselves. So I don't reject any of that. I want to tell that story. I always kind of take the long view, as we all do, the three of us. We are always looking back in history to see, what is the history of this form? What happened? What happened in this culture, and what happened to craft?

If you look at, for example, the Pueblo people in New Mexico, and you look at the arrival of the transcontinental railroad, and you look at this incursion of people moving westward with the expansion and manifest destiny, and then you see these incredible matriarchs in the Pueblo tribes. They pivoted to this new market. All of a sudden you had people seeking a souvenir or wanting to take something home from their incredible visit to the Pueblo people, and these matriarchs pivoted toward this new audience. Now, Pueblo pottery is just this incredibly creative and flourishing market. It's just the most remarkable evolution, but these things have happened all over the world where people have pivoted and, maybe for a time, they were kind of grinding away and making something.

I mean, the American Peace Corps, for example, often set up craft centers for people to help them make money in a new cash economy when a new economy was imposed during colonial eras, then people had to generate cash. Craft was a way, because everyone wanted to bring home a souvenir. Then those craft centers were these incubators of creativity. I think we have to use the wonderful platform that we have to broaden people's understanding so that they don't just see this binary tourist art. They really understand why. Why did that happen?

AT: Yeah, because nothing's created in a vacuum. There are so many factors, whether that be economic, social, political, their location, what's available to them. Talking about authenticity and craft, people might have a very stagnant idea of what an authentic piece of craft from a culture is, but it could be so different from five years ago because of what is available and whether these dyes are available or whether the forms change. It's just continuously evolving, and it's hard to pin down one kind of form and image that is authentic to these different cultures.

EH: And these are still ties. These are still points of cultural pride. You will see people from within cultures collecting or having in their home or decorating contemporary craft.
How are you going to tell someone that's not authentic? Of course it's authentic.

AT: Or just artistic experimentation from the artists themselves, right? They have the freedom to explore what they want to explore too, and that's really interesting.

GS: One of the big ideas of mingei, the art movement, and Yanagi Soetsu talking about this part of craft being the multiple as well, and people creating multiples of the same thing as part of that craftsman story. So what is wrong with the multiples at the markets? That is part of the story.

EH: [Guusje,] You're newer here—you're newer to Mingei, and you're coming from the world of contemporary art, but you've completely immersed yourself in craft now, and you're seeing this intersection between contemporary artists who are exploring craft from their culture. What is a fascinating thing that you've discovered since you've gotten here?

GS: Oh my goodness. In almost two years, I don't think I've discovered something not interesting. I think what really has been so amazing for me in the last two years has been hearing you talk about craft and just how you've connected it with people's lives. I think one of the really fascinating things that I'm working on now is the Midcentury ceramic exhibition, looking at Southern California and these objects that were created in our collection, all collected by Martha Longenecker, who had a very specific aesthetic. It's really fascinating to learn about her aesthetic but then this whole kind of counter-movement that was happening at the same time and understanding that these counter-movements were coming during a time where the whole art world was rebelling against what the aesthetic of beauty was.

Coming from a contemporary art world, it’s such an interesting clash to see. Now I'm getting to immerse myself in the Midcentury Modern aesthetic and exploring what that meant after World War II—understanding that people had this desire to go back to nature, which also happened in modern art. Picasso became a hyperrealist after World War I* as kind of a rejection of everything that was happening before then. I think it's really fascinating. I feel like I’m rambling.

EH: Aren't we lucky? Aren't we lucky to be here at this point? I feel very lucky. We have these amazing shows coming. Clearly Indigenous allows us to look at all Indigenous, Native American artists who are working in glass. It's remarkable—taking traditional imagery, iconography forms, and then exploring this new medium. Look at people like Joe Fedderson, who is making baskets with tire track patterns, because those are the new tracks on the land and chain link fence patterns. We recently acquired the work of Jason Garcia, who is creating this incredible series of works on clay, so working with the traditional medium but looking at the 1680 Pueblo revolt in the form of a comic book. How many people know that story that the Pueblo people kicked out the Spanish effectively? Here he is doing it in comic book form on clay, and that opens up the story to many more people.

GS: I mean, it’s what you were saying earlier with craft surviving, right? Even during World War II, people of Japanese descent were interned, and craft thrived in these camps. People really connected to their traditions and continued to make craft. I think that's such an important thing to keep reminding people—that craft is about survival.

AT: —and cultural continuity. Because, like you were saying, they are objects of use. I think, in some ways, in some cultures, they were easier to maintain and hide in a way—these revolutionary ideas—through their craft, because from the outside, it might not be seen as revolutionary.

EH: It looks very innocuous. Nothing to see here! Just a basket.

AT: Codices or symbolism can be really meaningful in these objects, because they're able to survive from object to object through generations.

GS: I think on the other hand, too, there is this big story or component of craft where people often accept other culture's craft before they accept the people as well, right? I think that's a really important thing to consider as well—this appropriation of craft by people globally but not the acceptance of the people that make it. I think it's important.

AT: I think that's a big conversation in terms of museums and what is collected by museums. Can we talk about what the significance of craft museums are and what enters these craft museums, and what are the benefits and challenges of craft in museums?

EH: It's most meaningful for us, because we connect to the cultures that produced the objects, and that's what maybe makes us slightly different in a way. We can't really bring something in without connecting with the culture. It's theirs, and they have to speak for it, and they have to feel a sense of ownership and interpret.

But this line between what do we collect? What do we not collect? We're having to think about that all the time. We're sort of out of space. As you know, because we're talking about this all the time, we really want to very intentionally collect things made by living artists, living craftspeople, and make Mingei a place that provides a platform for living artists so that people can come and interact and be inspired and listen to a voice rather than just becoming a repository for older forms. That's the joy. We get to have living artists here and meet them.

AT: I've really appreciated that, with you leading us in our department, focusing on the people behind these objects and focusing on living artists. I think it's important to represent multiple living artists, because then an object or a culture isn't reduced to just one thing. There's this variety of experiences, and it comes through their objects and their creativity and their stories and ideas. I've really appreciated us focusing on that.

EH: Well, look at what's opened up with your Virgin of Guadalupe exhibition, which started out [as] garments from Mexico with her image on them. We, in San Diego, can see all around us, she's here. She has crossed the border as people cross the border. We started out with garments coming from different people and different artists in Mexico, but it's opened up this whole conversation in our local community. You've found her everywhere—in nail art, in tattoos, on people's dresses. People are drawn in, and this becomes a place, a gathering place, like home away from home. That's what we want this place to be. We want it to feel like home.

GS: I really think that's the beauty of Mingei, right? There is this lower barrier to entry. People come into the Museum, and they see objects that they feel directly related to. They don't need an explanation. That is something that they've had in their home—their parents, their grandparents, brothers, sisters. There is something that is so innately personal and human about it that anybody can come in here and be like, “Oh, this is me. This is where I'm represented.”

EH: And then we've had the chance to explore these technologies. As we just learned with our big indigo show, this is not lightweight knowledge that people have held across the world, really for thousands of years, how some of these sciences and technologies work with the materials of craft. It’s artisans who held that very particular knowledge. We were just looking at indigo and the science of indigo. It's so complicated. You don't just drop leaves in a vat and they turn blue. It required extensive knowledge and expertise. Being able to celebrate those technologies that have existed around the world and really lift them up is an important part of what we do, I think.

GS: Yeah, definitely. Also access to materials, with so many people being displaced throughout history and losing access to the materials that, for generations, they've worked with—there's this resilience where people find new ways to work with new materials but within traditional practices. I think that's really beautiful, too.

EH: You're working on a show with our coworker, Mayo Mendoza, on skateboards and the DIY aspect of skateboard culture, which is just utterly fascinating—that people, out of necessity, had to create all of the paraphernalia: the boards themselves, how they work, the gear, the shoes. All of it had to be adapted by people, so completely creative. That's a fun show coming up that we know is going to bring in probably a completely different audience than we're used to having.

GS: Well, and I think that's kind of the beauty, right? One of the things that we're exploring in the Tuck and Roll armadillo show, too, is the fact that so many objects are created because there is a need for it, and this idea of the object of use, but then all the creativity that people put in. We have one case that is dedicated to armadillos as objects of use. (Armadillo sculptures, not actual armadillos!)

AT: Like an armadillo bowl!

GS: But I think, you know, that is really the exciting thing about craft. It fills a need, and the creativity that comes along with the need is really fun to see.

AT: Emily, do you have any advice for curators early in their career or mid-career that you can share with us?

EH: Oh my goodness. Oh my goodness. As I look back over my trajectory, I can see a pattern in my own work.
I'm a very heart-driven person, and what has driven me to keep making projects is that desire to foster respect between cultures and to, through this heart-driven activity, make people feel empowered and make them feel smart and that they get it. That's what builds this feeling of joy. I mean, I'd have to just call it what it is. It's just, it's joy when you can bring people together in a space and a beautiful object or a craft is the focus of your gathering, but then people leave feeling more connected to each other. That's not really advice except to say, what brings you joy in your projects? That's what will keep propelling you forward.

EH: When we are hiring people and when we're interviewing them, we always tell them we love what we do. We love craft, but we love people more! I think people who come into our space feel that on some subterranean level. They're coming in, and they're seeing craft and design, but really what they're encountering is that we love what we do and we love people and we love what they make, and I think people feel that.

AT: Yeah. Agreed. I would say they feel that through what we talk about and represent. Also the way we talk about it, I really appreciate, too—how accessible we've made shows and how we make accessibility a huge point in our exhibitions and our displays, from the way we display something to the language that we use.

GS: And at the same time, we're inviting people in honest conversations. Everything in this world is very nuanced, and I think we do our best to have a nuanced platform and have people think about it on deeper levels.

EH: You and I were recently at the Chicano Park Cultural Festival, which I just have to bring up, because it was such a celebration.

AT: It’s a huge celebration.

EH: And here we are on the border, a binational community on the border. I don't know why I'm bringing this up except to say that there is such an explosion of creativity around us.

AT: It deserves to be celebrated.


EH: It deserves to be celebrated, but there we were going out into that spectacle.

AT: Yeah, it was a huge spectacle—beautiful cars, bicycles, wagons, people's outfits, the murals.

EH: …the Aztec dancers, the murals, and people felt so at home. They felt like they were home. I don't know why I'm bringing this up just to say that you don't have to look far.

AT: You don’t have to look far.

EH: You don’t have to look far, and the more platforms that can be provided that can create a space for that kind of gathering where people feel at home—that's the goal, I think. It was just joy, joyous, joyous thing.

GS: I've been here for about two years, and I really enjoy the collaboration that we have as the three curators here. It's so much fun, and I'm learning so much from both of you every day, and I think it's just such an inspiration to work with you.

AT: Same. It makes it less daunting.

EH: Same. Yes, we're doing it together, and I'm learning so much from you all, too. I'm so glad you're here. So glad we can work together.

*Correction — Picasso engaged in the neoclassical movement after World War I.